Help: b&w 16mm questions

[B Lyndon]

I'm seeing on eBay this guy selling tons of Krasnogorsk-3 (sp?) 16mm cameras. Apparently, they are favorites for film schools, Spike Lee used one, blah blah blah.

Have any of you guys used them? If not, what model 16mm camera have you used? Comments? I'm looking to shoot a 16mm feature and any feedback would be awesome.

A few other questions:

-What film stock did you use and where did you get it? Have you shot b&w?

-Where did you have your stock developed?

-Is it worth it to transfer your footage to DV for editing, or is there a better (equate: cheaper, more practical) way?

I have a good strong base in still b&w photography, but it doesn't seem possible to develop 16mm features in your bathroom. If I'm asking too many questions, does anybody know a good link, or a good book, where I could get the answers and some figures so I can get my movie in production?

Thanks in advance.

B.L.

[Actor]

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what model 16mm camera have you used? Comments? I'm looking to shoot a 16mm feature and any feedback would be awesome.
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I have a Canon Scoopic, the older gray model. It's light meter does not work and and it's stuck on 24 fps, but I get by with it. I think it would be awsome to get a newer black model with all the functions working.

My dream camera would be the Arri 16S, the El Mariachi camera.
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-What film stock did you use and where did you get it? Have you shot b&w?
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I've shot Kodak neg and reversal. The neg is 7222. The reversal is Tri-X. Both are B&W. I ordered it direct from Kodak at 800-621-FILM
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-Where did you have your stock developed?
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Yale. I intend to try Cinelab in Boston.
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-Is it worth it to transfer your footage to DV for editing?
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I think so. I'm intending to give the transfer house in Pittsburgh a try.
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I have a good strong base in still b&w photography, but it doesn't seem possible to develop 16mm features in your bathroom.
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For DIY processing you can get a tank from the guy in Russia. I have not tried it.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 18, 2003 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Actor ]</font>

[GREATwarEAGLE]

I don't think the Krasnogorsk-3 has a crystal sync motor. Unless your feature film contains no dialogue, this is not the camera for you.

After doing an item and description search on ebay, key words 16mm crystal sync camera I found:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=4691
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=1477

[B Lyndon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've shot Kodak neg and reversal. The neg is 7222. The reversal is Tri-X. Both are B&W. I ordered it direct from Kodak at 800-621-FILM</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I don't know as much as I thought. What's the difference between reversal and neg? I thought Tri-X was a negative stock... there's a 35mm version that I've shot stills with for years.

GREAT responses, guys. First-rate. I'm checking out all the links. Much obliged!

[noddy754]

Reversal film is like slide film in your still camera

[B Lyndon]

What are the pros and cons of each? Will reversal require extra treatment? Which one is the norm?

And would everyone here recommend buying a package of Cokin filters? They look fantastic.

Continuing thanks!

[Actor]

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What's the difference between reversal and neg?
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Like Noddy said, reversal is intended for projection of the camera original, like moving slides. Negative has to have a print made for projection. However, negative can be telecined directly to video or DV without producing the intermediate print. The conversion from negative to positive image is done by the hardware or software.
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I thought Tri-X was a negative stock... there's a 35mm version that I've shot stills with for years.
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I understand your confusion and you have Kodak to thank for it. Even though they have the same product name the Tri-X that Kodak sells for 35mm SLR cams and the Tri-X that they sell as movie film are not the same thing. 35mm Tri-X is a negative film. 16mm and super8 Tri-X is reversal film. I exchanged eMails with Kodak a year or so ago to confirm this.

As a matter of interest there is not that much difference in B&W negative and reversal films. The difference is more in the processing than in the stocks themselves. Either can be processed as negative or reversal. However, if a manufacturer labels a B&W film as negative you can rest assured that its properties have been tweaked for maximum performance as a negative film. Same for film labeled as reversal.

There is little reason to "cross process" 16mm B&W film since both negative and reversal stocks are available. However, as far as I know there is no 35mm SLR B&W reversal film on the market. Cross processing in not uncommon.

The same goes for B&W super8 stocks. Both Plus-X and Tri-X are reversal stocks (in super8). They can be processed as negative and the process is, in fact, simpler than processing as reversal, requiring fewer steps. However, you lose about one stop of film speed in doing this.

[B Lyndon]

Awesome. Perfect. Thanks!

More questions (if you guys aren't all worn out)... Is it possible for the above-mentioned Krasnogorsk to be mounted with a synch motor? Is this a common ability for 16mm cameras?

Also, I dunno what it is about Kodak's website, but whenever I look for links to their 16mm film specs I end up going in circles. Is there a direct link floating around? Maybe another source for purchasing at discount?

Oh, and if I wanted to test out filters and exposures for 16mm by using a still 35mm camera (assuming identicle ASAs/ISOs), what would I set the shutter speed at? If film runs 24fps, then is each frame being exposed at 1/24 sec?

How fast as the fastest 16mm film stocks that you have worked with? We can push up to three exposures before we lose shadow detail, right?

Thanks again!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 19, 2003 12:36 PM: Message edited by: B Lyndon ]</font>

[Actor]

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Is it possible for the above-mentioned Krasnogorsk to be mounted with a synch motor?
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Reel Trading used to offer a sync motor for the K-3 but I'm pretty sure they discontinued it.
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Is this a common ability for 16mm cameras?
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Yes. The Film Group offers a sync motor for the black Canon Scoopic.
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Also, I dunno what it is about Kodak's website, but whenever I look for links to their 16mm film specs I end up going in circles. Is there a direct link floating around? Maybe another source for purchasing at discount?
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Go to www.kodak.com, then click on Cinematography-Products-Camera Films-Black and White Negative and Reversal Films, click on the stock you want, then click on Technical Specifications.
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Oh, and if I wanted to test out filters and exposures for 16mm by using a still 35mm camera (assuming identicle ASAs/ISOs), what would I set the shutter speed at? If film runs 24fps, then is each frame being exposed at 1/24 sec?
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You need to know the shutter angle. The shutter angle on the K-3 is 150 degrees so the shutter speed at 24fps is (1/24)x(150/360) = 1/57.6 sec or approximately 1/60 sec.
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How fast as the fastest 16mm film stocks that you have worked with?
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Kodak 7222 is ASA 200T/250D. It's about the fastest B&W 16mm film out there. Ilford makes an ASA 400 but I've not been able to find a source for it.
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We can push up to three exposures before we lose shadow detail, right?
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Beats me. You can push it but how much I don't know.

&lt;font color="#a62a2a" size="1"&gt;[ May 20, 2003 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Actor ]&lt;/font&gt;

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 20, 2003 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Actor ]</font>

[ComingApart]

I use a K-3. They're built like tanks (and sound like them too) People talk of jamming problems with them, and there is some truth to that, but once you know the proper way to load the things it's not an issue.
As far as noise and sound sync, yes they are noisy, as most of the older 16mm camera are. Make a blimp for it and it'll be ok. What do you expect for a $200 USD camera???
Usually people considering the K-3's are the kind of people that are gonna be considering the Bolex H-16's and the B&H filmo's. The K-3 is cheaper than both, has reflex viewing, takes cheaper lenses and as far as image quality goes, it blows the B&H out of the water and is equal to or better than the Bolex.
I think the k-3 is an excellent camera, especially for the price. They have their quirks, but what camera doesn't?
I wouldn't advise shooting a feature with it, but then why the **** would somebody try to shoot a feature if they couldn't afford a camera over $200 USD?